waking_life_coffee_asheville_2015Note Sept. 21: I’ve amended the headline on this story to remove the term “pick-up artist.” It’s a term that is part of the misogynistic subculture described below, one that can be read as dismissive of said behavior, and that was not my intent. For further clarification, here’s a glossary of terms used in that subculture, known as the “manosphere,” via rationalwiki.org.

Original post Sept. 20: The owners of a popular West Asheville coffee shop faced a storm of controversy Saturday after the publication of website that revealed they had created a podcast, blog and Twitter account detailing their relationships – sexual and otherwise – with women, often in degrading and demeaning terms.

Waking Life coffee shop owners Jared Rutledge and Jacob Owens produced the online content under the name Holistic Game. The blog and social media sites have been taken down, but several locals have found, saved and distributed tweets, blog entries and audio clips. The content ranges from general relationship talk to specific sexual encounters, vitriolic outbursts and misogynistic commentary.

The site jaredandjacobsaid first made the connection late Friday night or early Saturday, and a social media tsunami raged in online forums, individual Facebook posts and tweets throughout the day. A common refrain was simple: “I’ll never go to Waking Life again.”

At least two of Waking Life’s employees have quit their jobs. An online petition called for the removal of Waking Life flash-chilled coffee from local store shelves, and Saturday evening, a group of about 20 people stood on the Haywood Road sidewalk outside the coffee shop in protest. One woman held a sign that read “Fuck Misogyny.”jared_rutledge_asheville_waking_life_2015

Rutledge posted an online apology in which he tried to make amends. From his written apology:

I know I’ve said and posted a lot of things that are offensive. Most of my life I’ve struggled with insecurities around dating. I felt like, in the past couple years, that I’d finally gotten a handle on this and experienced more success. So I made a twitter, blog, and got Jacob to podcast with me. We didn’t always say nice things, and sometimes we were downright mean. Sometimes I just vented about frustrating experiences in an immature, hateful, and foolish way. It was in particular a breach of trust to post intimate details about lovers. I was naive enough to think it’d stay anonymous, and I was wrong.

In a telephone interview Saturday evening, Rutledge said he betrayed a community that had supported him and his business.

“I have immortalized my character flaws in a series of tweets that I thought were anonymous. I allowed myself to indulge in harsh and hateful judgements. I feel like an idiot. I was a fool for posting it. It was a betrayal of trust,” Rutledge said.

But regular customers and online commenters had a hard time reconciling the apology with the mass of Holistic Game podcast content, tweets and blog posts, which often speaks of women in demeaning terms. The content fits into an online niche known as the “manosphere,” where men talk openly about their ideas of masculinity, about manipulating women and about their sexual conquests. In several tweets, posts and in audio commentary, the Holistic Game creators talk about meeting women at the coffee shop and, in at least one case, having sexual intercourse with a women in the ground floor garage of the shop.

A couple of sample Holistic Game tweets:

“Intersectional feminist? How about I intersect my DICK with your PUSSY.”

“daily morsels of tasty game. 2013: 17 notches. 2014: 22 notches. 2015: 15 notches and counting.”

A sample from the Holistic Game podcast:

Jacob
However, if you’re saying to this person let’s hang out once or twice a week and fuck the bejesus out of each other, then all of a sudden your bar goes way down. It doesn’t mean you necessarily always have to put in fives and sixes in your rotation – and I think she’s like a six-and-a-half seven – but it definitely makes it easier.

So we kissed, went back, I was like hey we should do some acro-yoga, so we started doing some acro-yoga. I kissed her when she was on top of me. I’ve done this with at least like 10 women and I’m starting to feel kinda bad about it. It’s just so effective. It’s so effective, because you’re in control of their body, for one. And then also it’s strength and it’s grace at the same time. Every time it happens I just feel them melt a little bit, so I can’t not do it.

After that she was really forward. She just like pulled my legs apart that she was like supported on, right, and just, like, got down on top of me and just started going to town. I was like, OK, well that was easy. There was no talk, no awkward last-minute resistance. Nothing. Just right into it. Very casual, very cool. And now I think we’re going to hang out tonight even though it’s like… She said I’m pretty busy this week but I have like an hour tonight, can I come over so we can hook up. That’s exactly what the text said, so I’m really pleased with the lack of effort and the reward that I’m getting.

Jared
Thumbs up on that.

Jacob
Yeah it’s an easy one.

Jared
That’s good. What are we gonna call her? “Middle School?”

Jacob
Yeah, “Middle school.”

From the Holistic Game blog, which includes a post titled “A Breakdown of All My Lays”:

8. J. – Business – 6/7/7 – Played
Mid thirties ginger, hippie with a rail-thin body. Crazy in bed like older girls tend to be. Lived in an RV and smelled like beeswax, but was smart and interesting. I hit on her at my business. We stopped seeing each other because I talked too much about game (I’d just read The Game and discovered the manosphere) and it freaked her out. Classic mistake. No clue what she’s up to, but I think she’s headed towards cat lady status.

11. K. – Business – 6/7/7 – Played
Late thirties MILF that I fucked in her basement while her kids were asleep. Slamming body for her age, and I’d never fucked a woman that old. We didn’t hang out again – I think she was only really interested in something serious. Her exes were abusive and I think she wanted beta comfort and stability. I still see her around – she’s single and seems to be doing well.

12. A. – Business – 7/8/4 – Played
Sexy little mid-twenties brunette with a thigh gap. She was also dumb as a fucking brick. We fucked five or six times until she got feelings and couldn’t continue without monogamy. I wasn’t willing to be monogamous, so it ended. Moved away but still single to my knowledge.

The reaction had women around Asheville posting their outrage in various online forums. It also had some men reacting, including Asheville artist Gabriel Shaffer, a coffee shop regular, who posted this on FB:

“I want to say a little something that’s long overdue. The disrespect to women has got to be through. To all the mothers and sisters, and the wives and friends, I want to offer my love and respect to the end.” This MCA lyric rung through my head all day today,like a bell. A tremendous woman brought me into this world. All of my life, despite my fuck ups and hang ups, powerful and intelligent women have loved, supported and taught me my most valuable lessons. I would be nothing without them. I stand beside you ladies. Every single one of you.

###

Here’s is Jared Rutledge’s full online apology:

When I was in ninth grade, I looked at pornography on my Christian school lab computers. I got suspended for seven days, and walking into chapel the next Wednesday was hellaciously shaming. It felt white hot. To know that everyone in that gymnasium was disappointed and disgusted in me was almost unbearable. But I’d brought it on myself, and there was nothing for it. That’s the way I feel now.
I know I’ve said and posted a lot of things that are offensive. Most of my life I’ve struggled with insecurities around dating. I felt like, in the past couple years, that I’d finally gotten a handle on this and experienced more success. So I made a twitter, blog, and got Jacob to podcast with me. We didn’t always say nice things, and sometimes we were downright mean. Sometimes I just vented about frustrating experiences in an immature, hateful, and foolish way. It was in particular a breach of trust to post intimate details about lovers. I was naive enough to think it’d stay anonymous, and I was wrong.
So here we are. I grew up in West Asheville and have disappointed and brought shame to the community that raised me, and there’s not really anything I can do to make it right. There are no excuses to be made. The way I’ve phrased and framed my private conduct in a sad and tawdry public way is humiliating. There’s nothing to do but ask your forgiveness for any harm I’ve caused. I’m sorry folks.
Jacob and I are both open to sitting down and talking to anyone who might have concerns to address one-on-one.

And here is Jacob Owens’ apology, posted online Sunday afternoon:

I would like to fully admit to what I have done. I would also like to receive the shame and necessary consequences for my actions. I am not hiding nor do I want to deflect. Most importantly, I would like to apologize and express my sorrow for how these actions have affected other people, and how their presence online will continue to do so. People that I care for and value, even though my actions, now out in the open, will not make them feel that way. I feel ill and disgusted with myself when I think of what I have done.

First to explain my part. Jared and I did an anonymous podcast on picking up women where I crassly discussed my intimate experiences with women. I would like to be very clear that I did not author any of the posts of the blog or twitter. But just as worse, I knew they existed. I did not keep up with them, or fully know what was on them. But by knowing that it was going on, and knowing that I was associated however, I am complicit. I fully accept that shame as well.

I would do the podcast with Jared while we were kicking back and drinking whiskey. I had a persona and an ego that would come out while I tried to tell other men who might be listening how to be “successful” with women. Giving others tips on approaching women with your best foot forward is not wrong, but recounting intimate details in a public forum, and speaking of women in a demeaning way is. I am ashamed and wish that I could take it all back. Under a disguise that I thought would be anonymous, without the accountability that good friends hold you too, this persona that I am fully responsible for developed into a chauvinist and a misogynist. I love women. I value them. In my experiences with them they have taught me of kindness, grace, and compassion. Many of my words in the podcast do not reflect that.

Of course I am sorry to be caught, not for my consequences, but that these women will now listen in horror and shame to me recounting intimate experiences we shared. That is my most profound regret and I should be shamed for it. I am so sorry that I needed such a dramatic outcry from my community to teach me this lesson. I have lived a life of duplicity, loving my role in the community as a business owner and friend, while also disrespecting many people in that community that I was intimate with. I have taken everyone that has been so good to me for granted. The coming months will be me attempting to fully process and evaluate my actions, as well as attempting reparation.

I have been calling women that I discussed on the podcast to express my full apology, knowing that it is not enough and that I have no power to fully make amends. Many have been gracious and supportive which makes me feel my shame even more. I do not deserve it. No one is entitled to a second chance, especially after acting shamefully repeatedly. I have also been calling family members. People that raised me in this town with love and integrity that I have proven myself unworthy of.

As owners of Waking Life Jared and I are discussing reparations for our actions, especially to our employees who no longer want to be associated, which is fully fair. I have let them down as their employer as well as their friend, forcing them to leave a job in which they were valued, skilled and passionate. We will release a company statement addressing this tomorrow. We are keeping the doors open and are here because to close and not be present seems like an attempt to hide, and like I said to start I have no desire to receive any less than I deserve.

With shame and regret,

Jacob Owens

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65 Comments

  1. So we can put waking life out of business but still support Hector Diaz? Wife Beater, and owner of Bomba, Salsas, Choriso, and Modesto?

    Come on Asheville.

    https://hectorbeatswomencom.wordpress.com/

    Boycott Hector Diaz, Boycott Bomba, Modesto, Choriso, and Salsas

    (It doesn’t matter how good the weed is Hector can get you, violence against women, or anyone is unacceptable).

  2. These guys are now getting attacked in the international “seduction community” for apologizing. This made the papers in London.

  3. AC-T is reporting that the second Waking Life shop downtown is officially dead. Mountain Bizworks is cancelling their loan, and the realtor they were using has pulled out.

    Their current landlord said “he would evict Waking Life if it can be done legally.”

    The article ends with this cryptic statement:

    “The men have not been charged with a crime by Asheville police.”

  4. Wow Asheville is a small place. Have these dudes spred their seed to every single lady in town. STD much?

  5. You WHINY complainers are offended and upset BY FAR TOO MUCH.Grow up. Get over it. Move on. In my opinion, YOU ARE EVERYTHING that has ruined this Country. There is no guarantee in the Constitution of the United States that grants you or anyone else freedom from offensive words or ideas. You don’t like hearing this kind of talk? Turn it off, don’t listen, don’t look, but don’t lambast or belittle people because YOU are ‘offended’. You force people to apologize for behaviors that, quite frankly, don’t/shouldn’t require YOUR FEELINGS TO BE INVOLVED . From where I am, this Country DOESN’T NEED ANY MORE CRYBABIES. Deal with it.

    • “…but don’t lambast or belittle people because YOU are ‘offended’.”

      That’s your entire rant in a nutshell, genius.

    • I think it’s pretty clear who’s actually got his panties in a bunch here. Idiot, the right to lambast people is PART of free speech. Jared didn’t have a right to be sheltered from the consequences of saying ignorant things, and neither do you. Go back into the whole you crawled out of.

  6. I’m surprised so many women even slept with them, I’m sure warning signs were there. These guys are total Jerks.Good riddance.

    • That’s the elephant in the room nobody’s talking about … it’s an open secret that all these women are ignoring decent guys while sleeping with jerks, yet apparently these women hold zero, and I mean zero responsibility for their own behavior – it’s completely the jerk’s fault? Really? He had the willing consent of dozens of women that supported, enabled, enjoyed, encouraged his playing of them … but now he’s the bad guy. Some of these same women complaining will probably go hook up with some jerk yet again even after reading this blog.

  7. I find their blog to be inexcusable. And their attempt to donate the proceeds from their shop to an organization to be pretty pathetic: too little, too late.

    In my opinion though, everyone should be careful. You are surrendering the moral high ground if you ever deem a person to so “far gone” that they are not even worth an attempt at empathy (aka seeing things from their point of view).

    When I think about it, I really do pity them. Pitying them does not mean I am disregarding the victims of their strange, selfish game. It means that through empathy I am looking for a lesson to learn out of all this, beyond the notion that these were a couple of sucky guys.

    What an empty life, living to hop from one person to the next, using them for physical pleasure and moving on, avoiding any meaningful connection whatsoever. I wonder what could have pushed them to live that way, beyond just “Media, stereotypical macho culture, ” etc. Maybe their parents struggled with bad relationships and they never witnessed love and connection first hand so they have nothing to model after; perhaps they never had somebody to guide them through the maze of exploitative imagery and hedonism in the media; maybe nobody ever talked to them as kids or teenagers about how the “dream” of “scoring” leads to an empty, messed up existence where you view an entire half of the population – every one of them a human being with hopes, dreams, ambitions, fears – as meat to be consumed instead. It boggles the mind.

    Regardless of what led them to this point, of course they still bear the full responsibility for their actions and I am certainly not justifying them. The murderer who was abused as a child is still a murderer and should be punished and treated as such.

    But we need to look for the lessons in this.

    • I agree that we need work to find empathy. If we ask call them a bunch of names, well that’s part the behavior that disgusted us when they called women “damaged goods” and worse. If we dismiss their behavior and words as too far gone, sociopathic, etc, we dehumanize them and stop holding them accountable for their choices. They made terrible decisions. They will undoubtedly suffer great personal and professional losses for their choices; in fact they already are. They can start making better decisions.

    • You’re absolutely right that it’s sad that they viewed half the population as things to be consumed rather than fully realized people with hopes and fears and dreams. They are missing out on so much. Maybe they avoided some pain for a little while, but that’s certainly no longer the case.
      Hopefully getting caught will help them start to see women as more than notches.

    • Actually screw that. It’s late and I’ve decided too much thought to these guys. Yes they are humans who made shitty choices. But you know who else needs empathy? The women they purposefully and sometimes repeatedly manipulated and sexually humiliated. They were called degrading names, discussed with contempt and reduced to nothing more than parts of their body.

      • The women they took advantage of need both sympathy and empathy; absolutely. They were victims of a sick game. You go into a potential relationship with a generally positive view of humanity, expecting somebody to be acting in good faith and maybe not perfect but at least genuinely seeking a meaningful relationship. And probably even saying things to lead you on into believing that they are doing that. And then the blinders come off and you realize they are misogynists in an almost sociopathic way.

        And honestly I agree; these guys may be the tip of the iceberg on that front. It’s really a horrible situation. There probably are a lot of guys like this. Who knows how many. Sociopaths are said to be very charismatic and appealing; how do you distinguish them from honest guys? Yeah, it’s ridiculous.

        I don’t really think these guys are in line for sympathy. But empathy certainly is in order if we are to understand what drove them to be like this.

  8. Haha guys are still trying to work their game in the comments on this. That’s predictable but still funny.

  9. These two guys, didn’t just post these comments in one place, or two places, but three different sites…talk about – “dumb as bricks”.

  10. I believe their apologies are sincere. They don’t need to be burned any more than they have been. I think they’ve learned their lesson. Let them be. If people choose to do business with them after this, so be it.

  11. My wife and I debated this over dinner tonight. Is it misogynistic and sick? Yes it is. It was also really stupid as these guys are semi-public figures with a public business. Should we bankrupt them? No, and here’s why. Waking Life is a local business. Local businesses contribute 40% back the to the local economy. More importantly (and this is what most folks fail to realize) societal problems cannot be corrected punitively. You go around shaking your fist saying ‘they will pay’, well they certainly will pay. You’ve also done nothing to address the root issue you have only told those of similar belief systems to hide better, perpetuating the sickness over generations. Equality for women is a real issue. Remember the march on Chick-fil-A during the gay marriage debates? Gay marriage proponents made far more headway by reaching out and becoming restaurant patrons–the exact opposite of a boycott. Are you justified in your anger? Yes. Do you really want to fix this problem? Begin to reach out with love, not outrage. Show them that you are bigger. Personally, I’d like to see a mass organization of women to buy coffee from Waking Life and engage its owners and the public in a positive and constructive way.

  12. Ok Ashville, man the f up. It takes two to tango. I wonder how many of the women who boned, these two redneck punks that masquerade as liberal wimps, and then gave a similar critique to their BFF’s.

  13. I sent this in to Gawker and it has gone national now.

    http://jezebel.com/asheville-coffee-shop-owners-secretly-ran-misogynistic-1732097139

    Those guys suck.

  14. “I know I’ve said and posted a lot of things that are offensive. Most of my life I’ve struggled with insecurities around dating.”

    Sorry boys but your small pee pee isn’t our problem.

  15. I read that one of them admitted to rape. Is the DA investigating?

  16. More moral decay and its consequences.

  17. Radio Follower says:

    Jason..

    To say these two are just ‘pick up artists’ is dismissing what they did. This is a sick game. I read the tweets and heard enough of the podcasts to nearly vomit. These two deserve what they get and no apology is going to turn things around in their favor.

  18. Hey guys close up the coffee shop and start a PUA business. I mean the coffee shop seemed more like a peacock feather rather than a real business anyway.

  19. I’ve seen worse stuff on Facebook. So these guys talk too much about their love lives. A pretty common shortcoming – not grounds to run them out of business. “Let he who is without sin…”

  20. I will be glad when this blows over, and real news takes hold.

    Ok. 30-somethings stuck in teenagerdom. Queue up “Stacy’s Mom” and get on with it.

  21. Textbook social media takedown.
    What they did would have had a hard time seeing the light of day and subsequent blitzkrieg of outrage a mere 15 years ago. What they did was made possible by social media and they partook of it utilizing its ability to express oneself publicly. They are free to do so, and can continue to do so, but will pay a price.
    Will their apology and reparation be enough to save their business and their “soul?”
    I don’t know if the apology is sincere. I wonder if it is professionally crafted, a PR-dictated response; it is a fine piece of damage-control. If this is the case, and each person will make that call, the business is in its last throws.
    Ironically, the business has enjoyed a fine reputation, success and expansion over the years. This is no accident and is only accomplished by hard work, dedication, knowledge, vision and discipline. These qualities lead me to believe they will have been changed for the better by this sordid affair. Their “souls” will be changed by this teaching moment. They will become better men because of it. This is the most important part. But we will gain a lot if we don’t excuse them, if we don’t punish them by making their business a pariah doomed to failure.
    Outrage can be good. So can thoughtfulness. Will this be social media at its worst or at its best?

  22. Damn but the pickup artist “community” is a sadsack bunch of dipsh*ts.

    https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-50547.html

    This was their audience.

    Who is “Roosh V”? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roosh_V

    And here are some more winners (the Red Pill community Jared mentions (thanks, Abayevna):

    https://np.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/3lnflx/psa_be_cautious_of_your_online_persona/

    What a f’ed up group.

  23. If they had blogged about how many DUDES they had hooked up with, they would be heroes.

  24. I’ve been reluctant to comment on any social forums about this, as the situation requires thoughtful, careful discussion – and, to be clear, it’s NOT that we need to be careful in regard to the very clear position around the perpetrators. Rather, I worry that describing these predators as “pick-up artists” propels a narrative that emphasizes freedom of speech and expression, while displacing the necessary focus on the general culture of misogyny and violence toward women (and others) that their actions are promoting – as part of a larger, organized network that extends far beyond these two, loathsome individuals.

    As can be expected, very specific hate speech targeted at Asheville residents is already running rampant on Internet forums that define community-wide protests as a “feminist lynch mob.” The vitriolic language employed in these forums ceases to be “harmless” when assertions begin to incite/celebrate violence, as in comments like this:

    “Then again, this girl, like most feminists will enthusiastically participate in a violent throat fucking if it’s delivered by an appropriate alpha cock, and they’ll still pretend they’re feminists in the morning.”

    The above is quoted from some fantastic piece of shit going by the very original, anonymous name of “porscheguy” on https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-50547.html

    As conversations continue around this truly horrid set of incidents, I hope the community remains focused on the fact that this is not a “live and let live” issue, and that a half-assed set of apologies will not lead to yet another “forgive and forget” bunch of bullshit.

  25. weavervilleman says:

    looks like he will burn!!!!

  26. FWIW – search Ashvegas for Bucktooth Coffee. A long-time Waking Life employee held a Kickstarter over a year ago for funds to open his own coffee shop. He raised close to $7000. Since then…crickets. I hear he now has a really nice coffee setup in his home kitchen.

  27. new sht has come to light says:

    fellow misogynist claims Holistic Game emailed picture proof of conquests to after someone doubted his game (I’ll just leave this print-screen here): http://prntscr.com/8ilsh6

  28. Wow! What a D.B. Won’t be visiting Waking Life anymore…

  29. Fuck misogynists says:

    Funny that Jared only posts about women when he has also fucked a bunch of dudes. He likes the boys who look no older than 12 ironically and while I’m at it I am actually surprised that he is such a womanizer when his dick size is far less than average.

  30. My sister was a victim of this disgusting pig. I hope his business is shut down.

  31. These guys have flat ruined it for all of the rest of the misogynistic coffee shop owners in town! I expect this will straight-up flatline everyone’s notch count for 2015!

  32. Ouch….what a weird subculture.

    It’s such a bummer because I totally support their business model. Living wage certified, fair trade organic, sometimes local ingredients, educating the customer base on the product, etc….That stuff is really important to me. But if they’re committed to actively promoting misogyny, I wouldn’t want to fund that at all.

  33. Weren’t they planning an expansion?

  34. So they don’t name names, no one knows who these women are yet they are in the wrong? Did these guys coerce these women into sex? I didn’t think so.

    You don’t suppose in the era where women offer about zilch in terms of relationship benefits, that they have to actually put out first before getting into one? My, my, there once was a saying that claimed the way to a man’s heart is through his stomach. But women don’t cook anymore. And all the do offer is leftovers.

    • These women were all adults. None of them were drugged. All of sound mind. All behaving out of their own free will. All were enjoying what was happening. By the sounds of it, he was even clearly open that they were part of a harem, and they accepted that too. Yet the overzealous rush to project them as ‘victims’ as if they’re children, incapable of thinking or behaving on their own, does a great disservice to feminism and women’s rights.

  35. angel chandler says:

    I’m sure they are open to sitting down and talking. I hope no one gives them the time of day, for their apologies or their coffee. Just let them sink. They are both sick asshats and anything they will say will just be to save themselves and their business. Their only regret is that they were found out.

  36. “I was naive enough to think it’d stay anonymous, and I was wrong.”

    Homeboy is only sorry he got caught being a shallow, manipulative misogynist who ridicules people (women and men) supporting his business and livelihood.

    He apparently doesn’t see the issues with his perspective on other human beings. Time to question why you’ve acted like you have and talk to a counselor and a laywer. I understand Jared claimed to screw someone who could not have given consent in one of his podcasts. That’s rape, son!

    And no apology from Jacob?

  37. This sort of crap makes life hard for us decent men. We are not all like that, but these #@$#&3ers make us all look bad in women’s eyes. Shame on you for your awful behavior, you jerks.

    • @cwaster, you’re right it does reflect badly on guys in general. Because the list of cads is too damn long:
      Bill Cosby (top prize)
      John Edwards
      Mark Sanford
      Bill Clinton
      Anthony Weiner
      Eliot Spitzer
      …. and countless other politicians, business leaders, pro athletes, entertainers, pastors, priests, regular guys, fathers, brothers, husbands, ETC ETC.

      When men decide to actually do something about so much of the sick piggishness that goes on, then the tide might turn. But it won’t because guys encourage it more than discourage it.

    • exactly. I’ve been saying this too. Decent guys are inadvertently penalized because douche bags like this make it nearly impossible for women to trust.

    • The Real World says:

      “This sort of crap makes life hard for us decent men.” You’re right, cwaster.

      But a big part of the problem is the decent guys don’t do anything about the sick ones. Men are more inclined to encourage juvenile macho behavior than discourage it. So, mostly women are left to fight this stuff.

      The REAL secret seems to be that WAY MORE guys have misogynistic viewpoints and crass sexual proclivities than anyone wants to believe or admit.

      • The Real World says:

        Ok, I need to add to my comment above.

        cwaster – what you don’t realize is that the very way that you are looking at this issue is the problem itself.

        Your concern was for yourself and how you’ll be viewed by women b/c of jerks like the Waking Life guys.

        Why isn’t your concern for anyone who may have been intentionally duped or mistreated AND for the lack of moral decency and consideration?

        Because it’s usually about Ole #1, isn’t it?

        • Bang-on (both your replies).

        • You are very wrong. I don’t behave this way, nor do any of my friends or the men in my family. In fact, I stand up for and support the women in my life. All of my male friends are disgusted by those dbags. If you think all men are like them, or “about number one” you are quite wrong. If you see all men as bad or selfish, that’s a problem in and of itself.

          So take your vitriol elsewhere, point it back at the guys that deserve it please.

          • The Real World says:

            Nice try with the transference except it clearly appears that a nerve was struck when I hit the nail on the head.

      • The problem with what you’re saying is that you’re completely ignoring the question of WHY when you say “More Guys are probably Even Suckier Than We Thought.”

        Be wary of the notion that they are male and white and well-off and therefore privileged enough that considering their viewpoint is akin to giving them an excuse, when we should just write them off as Some Sucky Guys in a long line of Many Sucky Guys.

        First you are missing the chance to learn a lesson from all of this. The lesson we need to learn is, what causes boys to grow up into men like this, and how to stop it from happening.

        Second, when you write off even one person, even a person who has acted distastefully, due to a stereotype like that without looking at the individual, you are degrading humanity as a whole. There is a REASON they turned out like this, and it’s not just that Guys Are Sucky.

        • And OK, I’ll be the one to say it: I’ve known women who are almost as swinish in the way they treat men. Even dated one or two of them. Yuck.

          One, when I asked why she stared at other men while we were out together, said “Oh, I’m just practicing my Male Gaze.”

        • The Real World says:

          orulz – LOL…it must have been a 420 kind of afternoon. Beautiful day for it!

          You make-a no sense-a. But, I like-a your style.

      • “But a big part of the problem is the decent guys don’t do anything about the sick ones.”

        What would you have us decent guys do?

        We can’t kick their asses or shoot them. Our pantywaist society says we must avoid violence and be tolerant and understanding. We might sit them down and give them a lecture, but really, who are we kidding? Would a guy who stalks women like wild prey give a shit?

        These guys disgust me, but they found plenty of WIILING stupid women to fall for their game, so who REALLY needs to EDUCATED here?

        Women fall for bad boys then complain when they get treated like whores. Meanwhile, decent guys get turned down for being “too nice”, i.e. not date-raping them.

        Don’t blame the entire male gender for this. Women hold 50% of the blame and 50% of the responsibility to fix it. The maximum effective range of your hypocritical rage is zero meters.

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